A CONVERSATION WITH LÊ THIÊN-BẢO,

Available in French on ACA (Asian Contemporary Art) Project’s website here

Conducted for ACA Project in August/September 2023, by Amandine Vabre Chau

Opened this year, Galerie BAQ is one of the few galleries in Paris devoted to contemporary art from Southeast Asia and its diaspora. Led by Lê Thiên-Bảo and Quinnie Seon Gin Tan, I had the opportunity to speak with Thiên-Bảo about the gallery's foundation, its curatorial approach and the French art market.

INTERVIEW

(left to right) Quinnie Tan and Le Thien-Bao © Mathilde Cazes. Courtesy of Galerie BAQ

Background : BAQ’s conception and curatorial approach.  

Amandine Vabre Chau: Why did you choose Paris and why name the gallery BAQ ?

Lê Thiên-Bảo:  The gallery BAQ stands for Bao and Quinnie.  It’s both our names, me and my partner’s, Quinnie Tan. She used to be in Urban planning while I’ve been working as a curator in Vietnam. We didn't choose Paris as much as Paris chose us. I had no plans when I came to the city. Quinnie and I met here, through a common friend. I came up with the idea of opening a space then we partnered up, with her doubling as an investor. We started early/mid 2022 and it took us 7 months to secure a space.  

Why have you decided to open your own space? Is it to have more autonomy over what you want to show, and the artists you want to present ?  

In 2019, I left The Factory because I felt like I needed new energy. I needed to move on.  Especially after working a while in Vietnam, I found that the non-profit model cannot last long without the market. We no longer lack curators and spaces while the younger generation, also self-taught, really adds value by bringing different approaches and perspectives to the scene. There is also the financial struggle of private spaces in Vietnam. The Factory financially depends on one woman, it's Thuy (founder, ed). It's her money she puts in. And even though we tried to sell, it’s not enough to compensate the costs. Meanwhile, we clearly don’t have enough contemporary art galleries to accompany artists, so my idea of opening the gallery starts from the wish to be financially independent and self-sustainable. 

Installation There is no Lonesome Wave, 2023 © Galerie BAQ

Are there not many public fundings in Vietnam?  

There is none. If Sàn Art runs it’s because in the first phase they had foreign funding, such as Prince Claus amongst others; all thanks to the network of the founders. Or, it might be private funding which comes from investors. Now it’s operating because artist Dinh Q.Le ( Sàn Art co-founder, ed) and a board of trustees keep putting their own money in it. When I started, art spaces could not generate their own income, they don't sell a lot. The only good gallery that sold at the time while having stable public programming was Quynh gallery in Ho Chi-Minh and Manzi in Hanoi. Vin Gallery also does a lot but they focus more on art fairs in Asia. Other galleries were usually very private to avoid unexpected attention from the “cultural police” in Vietnam. I also cannot remember any other non-profit art organization, with frequent programmes, that could last more than five years without shifting their approach or taking a long break. I thought, okay, maybe the big problem is the market.  

Do you find the market more functional in France? 

I don’t know, I just started. It might be too soon for me to talk about the French market. I have been here for 3 years, and more than 1 year was with COVID-19. But at first glance, of course the French art market is functional. Many emerging artists that I know are working with a gallery, or are in a collective/association. Meaning they can still finance themselves or at least pay for their studio. They might have some side jobs but don’t have to become a weekend-artist like many in Vietnam where young artists need to have a full-time job in parallel. Which is okay in the beginning, in your 20s or 30s, that's what you do to sustain your practice. But then, at mid-career, artists need to develop their practices and patrons/museums/markets play a crucial role in pushing them towards more ambitious projects. That’s where there’s a big issue: the most successful ones end up going beyond borders, working with international curators or galleries in Hong Kong or Singapore for example. 

Unlike in France, where mid-career artists have more chances to be accepted in famous residencies, apply for grants in many different foundations, freely exchange with other countries in Europe, etc; there are more barriers for artists from Southeast Asia if the domestic resources and infrastructure are not enough to push them. They can sell in Vietnam for some collectors but since we do not have enough galleries and good art spaces, a lot of artworks go to private collection before being exhibited or archived. Money is circulating, but there are very few good shows and no history of activities. It is so hard to justify the artwork’s value on the global market. Now, as I opened Galerie BAQ in Paris, we aim to promote artists who are living and working in Southeast Asia, but I understand we can only welcome a certain number of artists in the beginning to make sure that we follow up and grow with them. Otherwise, we only do short-term collaboration, by projects. 

Meaning you follow your artists and their work, it’s not a one-off, they stay. 

Absolutely. On the gallery’s website we have two categories of artists. One is gallery’s artists; another is exhibited artists. Exhibited artists are invited for a group show because we love their works, but we agree not to work in a long-term with them because our direction is different than theirs. It's just like dating, you need to date and communicate with someone to know if you're going to commit. The commitment between a gallery and an artist is a real relationship. We need to put a lot of work and investment into promoting their works in various activities and bringing them the attention they deserve. This is crucial especially for a young gallery to determine who to work with in the beginning to balance the financial and artistic aspects, so that we can plan a budget for future programs. 

Do you usually determine whether you can continue to work with them after the first show or is it a mutual discussion?  

It's always a mutual discussion. During the working process, hanging or displaying are the last steps. People only see the result, but behind that there is communication about expectations, the way they think, their personalities too. I don’t know about other galleries, but at this point I don't want to work with an artist who’s very difficult to communicate with, it’s really draining. I prefer to keep my work as my own joy. Imagine if you were to represent someone who's horrible all the time, why would I do that? You can’t represent someone you don’t believe in. And you cannot even talk about work that way. That’s the difference between gallery practice and curator practice, I think. Of course, the curator also invites suitable artists to work with, but the relationship is more akin to a one off. In my experience as a curator, especially when working for an organisation, you are assigned to work with an artist/group of artists that sometimes is not the best match, but because of many diplomatic reasons, I am obliged to work with them. I found no joy in such a project.  

Installation À Maree Basee, 2023 © Galerie BAQ

And do you think that also prompted you to have your own space? So that you could follow artists in the longer run? 

Yes. I don't like to work with curators who only focus on networking. Unfortunately, the more I work, the more I encounter them. I'm lucky because I grew up in Vietnam where the art scene is still small, so curators genuinely care about it you know? All my colleagues there really curated in a way that I don't often see here in France, maybe because it has become so industrialized. There are few people still doing that kind of practice truly related to care. I was surprised to see many curators absent from the installation process. They are really hands off and don't necessarily keep a strong connection with artists. They will show up for the vernissage for sure, with a glass of champagne and nice clothes, but they weren’t present when artists needed them for real work. Being a curator is not that fancy. And I have a problem with people working or giving a lot of discourse around care when you know that they really don’t.  

So, do you install your shows yourself as well? Do all the manual process too?  

Yeah, yeah, I do everything. For the first show with Lim Sokchanlina, I installed the entire sound system and projection structure myself. At some point when you grow your organisation, of course you need to hire technicians to do more complicated things, but you must be the one to be there. Especially when artists themselves can’t be on-site. You’re the liaison, you need to determine whether you’re presenting their work right. I’m not saying the curator needs to know exactly how to paint a wall but your involvement in the project is very important because that’s all the job is about. 

Do you involve the artists during the installation process? Consulting them on how they would like their art to be presented for example. 

Yes of course. It’s a small space, so what I do is I give them a 3D rendering or take pictures of the space, sometimes draw on these pictures, tell them where the placement could be, and we visualize things together. Unless the artist says they don’t want to get involved at all. If they don’t like it, we suggest a different solution. Each and every artist is a universe right ? Some want to be bright and big while others don’t want to be put in the front, they prefer a private area. Not everyone wants visibility, and it depends on the work too. Along with technical matters such lighting or lack thereof. But I think a strong point of the gallery is that, because we started from a curatorial background, we really pay attention to how artists feel about the show. Because in the end if the artist is not happy with it, it's not successful. First, the artist and we, ourselves, must be happy with it; the public comes second. 

The public comes afterwards? 

For me, the public comes afterwards. We always put the artists first, then the public second. It’s a balance. When we try to put the public higher and the artist lower, it's as if the artist is serving the public. And that kind of mentality was very popular during the war with propaganda, where art always had to serve the purpose of the people. I don’t like it. I think when you enter a relationship thinking someone has to serve someone else it’s toxic. 

Would you say that your curatorial approach is a relational and collaborative one with your artists? You talked a lot about care and mutuality, is that central to your practice?  

Yes. Care has always been central to my practice. The artist’s satisfaction is always on top of our list. But I think I need to twist that a little bit with the gallery. You have to think about long-term effects, it’s not just one show. How do you maintain yourself financially so you don't put too much in one project, or risk everything for one artist? It needs to be more rational. That's why an artist is our partner, it’s a partnership. They need to trust us. They need to discuss with us what they want, their plans, and also respect what our vision is, what we want to do, as well as our limits. 

Diving deeper into the art market: funding and the art scene in France. 

It was interesting when you were talking about funding in France and in Vietnam, the fact that in Vietnam there weren't a lot of it— or at all. When I talk with artists here, they are complaining about how France lacks funding, how the process is very complicated, mostly they talk about bureaucracy.  

I think there are just so many artists in France in comparison to the amount of funding. More and more artists cannot produce artworks by themselves, especially in contemporary art, where the ideas become more and more ambitious. And because the funding will never be enough for everyone, it is normal that the artist must stop relying only on public funding. They must work with the market and galleries. There are three pillars: Institutions/Academia, The Public and The Market. These three pillars always relate together, and they hold the art world. There has never been a time in history where art could sustain itself without rich people or the state. That is the ugly truth.  

Mécènes in France.  

Mécènes, or in the US— who do you think fund museums? Billionaires. That’s why we call it cash flow right? There is no such thing as pure, clean, money. It's just a purification process.  

You were saying that you're new to the art market in France, but I'm guessing you have some guidance as to how it's working. How would you say the art market in France is for Asian artists ?  

For Asian art in France, it’s usually understood as Chinese, Korean or Japanese. When people invest in art here, they like antiques. They like crafts and objects. The same way they collect an Indonesian mask or Vietnamese ceramic sculptures.  
In the past, many French families bought artworks made by artists graduated from L’école des Beaux-Arts d’Indochine for decoration purposes, because they were quite exotic. Now it has become a piece of history, and their families sell those items at auction houses. However, the prices are blown way too high now because the new wave of collectors is willing to pay whatever price to reclaim their heritages. Ironically, Vietnamese collectors are willing to pay a lot for French businesses to get back items created by Vietnamese people. Meanwhile, they still hesitate to invest in emerging Vietnamese contemporary art, created by living artists. 

The good thing about French market is that there are plenty of art-lover who are willing to buy a piece that give them a coup-de-cœur, with artworks priced under €3000. There are buyers who are real art lovers and want to support the artist.  It's interesting because in my experience with the French market, it’s hard to sell foreign mid-career artists. They are usually middle priced, above €10 000 to €40 000. It's very hard because you either sell really, really, famous artists or you sell young, emerging, artists. It's very difficult to target that middle range market. And of course, the easiest to sell are wall-pieces. Overall, the market here knows very little about Southeast Asian contemporary art. We do not have a market here, yet. We don’t. 

Do you sell abroad then? American buyers perhaps?  

There are buyers in America and here too but it’s usually institutions that buy Southeast Asian artists, mostly diasporic artists. However they are not, and cannot, represent the on-going art scene in the local region. My strategy right now is to sell both to local collectors in the local country of the artist, and going to fairs to find new collectors. In recent years we started to have good local contemporary art collections. They are the ones who support the artists and the art scene the best. Without them, we cannot make it.  

I saw that you were on the board of advisers for the Mekong Cultural Club. I thought that was a really interesting initiative to connect different artists and professionals of such a vast region. I was wondering if you can find this type of interconnectedness or work-across-borders here as well? 

I’m sure France has a lot of them? 

It’s more that France feels more self-contained. It’s a country that seems to be artistically more isolated in a way. That doesn’t necessarily look outwards to its neighbouring region. I was wondering if you felt the same way? 

It is self-contained, but I think it’s too soon for me to say anything about France. When I came here, I took part in POUSH and we met artists from everywhere. The majority is French, but we had people from Russia, Vietnam, Mexico, Nigeria, Algeria. POUSH is particular as not every organisation has that, but there are lots of other fondations like Fondation Fiminco that have very diverse artists from all around the world. There’s also Cité des Arts. I don't see that kind of self-preserving attitude, but maybe the feeling of isolation you mention comes from French public institutions more than private ones. They might be more “closed off”, perhaps would prefer to work with a French curator that talks about Asia rather than an Asian curator who talks about Asia, for example. I’m not sure as I have very little experience working with them as of now. I cannot say. But it does seem that if you don't speak French, it’s very difficult to enter the local art scene, which is not necessarily the case with other places. In Germany for example, I know that people don't speak German and still participate. They treat English equally. Of course, the French art world speaks English and you can go to openings and be fine, but to commit to work speaking English-only is a problem. But that's my personal experience.  

With your focus on Southeast Asian artists, are there any challenges relating to adapting or translating, or something that requires more work than anticipated in a French cultural setting? 

I think the biggest problem is transportation. 

I’m asking because I remember you said the public comes second, so I was wondering whether you would or wouldn't necessarily cater to the public. 

Our gallery does everything in 2 languages. When you come to the show, you will have a take-away introduction text in either English or French. Our newsletters are also in both English and French. We sometimes have Vietnamese version for the press in Vietnam for some shows. For the website, we still need time to build a multiple language website so for now everything is in English. I think that is good enough for now. 

It is good to be the one and only very little gallery who does this in the area. We set our own standards. This is our artists, this is our contemporary art. We give you access, and you can decide whether you accept it, or you don’t. I'm not trying to represent the scene. I'm trying to represent the artists that I work with. I just make sure that they are happy with the setting, the vibe and that's it.  For me, it's always mutual. If you want to get to know something that took a long way to get to where you live, in front of your eyes, you need to make some effort too. Today’s technologies help us connect better, search any information and understand other languages in a click. If the public does not want to make such a simple move, I don’t think they are our target audience. 

With the small number of spaces in Paris that are specialised in Asian /Southeast Asian contemporary art, I was wondering if any of you are connected, in touch or thinking of collaborating? I know there’s also the A2Z Gallery for example.  

We are friends. I curated 2 shows for A2Z and all went very well. Collaborations between galleries in the same city are not as simple. There can be issues regarding conflict of interest. So, it is really a case-by-case thing. On the other hand, we are prioritizing connections with local galleries/organizations in Southeast Asia and share a percentage to them if we sell. Together, we boost the artists better. Some of our partners includes: Sa Sa Art Projects in Phnom Penh, Cambodia; RUBANAH Underground Hub in Jakarta, Indonesia; Atta Gallery in Bangkok, Thailand and A+ Work of Art in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. That way, Galerie BAQ expands our network to those who share the same work ethic and are more beneficial for the artists and their communities. 

Installation Land(e)scape, 2023 © Galerie BAQ

Upcoming projects for BAQ: 

You present both Asian and Asian diaspora artists along with others. What future projects do you have in mind that might connect different communities together? 

I have a show in October called Tropical Hallucinations— Okay, I need your feedback on the name 

To me it sounds like an exotification.  

Why exotification? Because of the word ‘tropical’?  

Yes, usually when it's used in France it’s meant to refer to an “otherness”, something “exotic”, “excitingly different”. That's the first thing that comes to mind but from a very specific colonial setting, which I don't think is what you mean at all. 

But I think it's just talking about climate. I have asked some people what they think of the word, and they all gave me the same answer, especially scholars. The fact that people understand a word that describes climate as a colonial legacy is problematic because the word itself doesn't mean that.  

No, it doesn’t, but a lot of words don't mean anything like that directly. However, they have been used so severely within that setting that it becomes associated with. It’s linked to when major French institutions, specifically those that everyone knows have a strong colonial legacy, keep on using that word to mean something specific to them and their vision; which is completely disconnected to what they are actually talking about or referring to. You start to associate these together. Which isn’t the original meaning. I know that you're not using ‘tropical’ in that way, but that's what comes to mind.  

I understand but then is it our problem or the word’s problem?  

It’s not the word's problem or yours or ours. It's the association that comes with it, the connotation that has been put on it. I think it's something to take into account.  You could very well use the word for that very reason, refusing to cater to its connotations and because it isn’t something that used to mean anything of that sort. Yes, it isn’t your burden or ours in general to bear.  

It's funny because when I use ‘tropical’, it reminds me a lot of cocktails. And people started to say “oh don't use the word tropical” because of exactly what you explained. But why can't I use a word that describes the climate of my region just because it's been taken away from us by institutions? Because it might give people this and that idea? For me, if I can’t touch a word because of the settings that were set by the West, we lose that word.

And it goes back to an extractive dynamic, being deprived of something, yes. But that's why I didn't say you can’t or shouldn’t. Only that it does come to mind. It’s completely your choice as to if, or how, you use it. And you could very well say that you’d use it even more because of that setting. Akin to reclaiming a word that has been taken.  

Because the whole show is about beliefs from different countries and how artists in our exhibitions approach different religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam. Southeast Asia is very diverse, and faith comes in many forms. It’s not just religions but also tales, fairy tales, legends or collective memories. In Vietnam for example we believe in things we can remember, such as our ancestors, or that holy tree in the village. It's interesting to see how artists approach that and how it influences their work. Also, in our tales, the characters in power and with magic are usually in the form of an animal, or something related to nature such as a rock, a mineral; contrary to Western legends where they are in human form. A lot of artists in the show create all sorts of hybrids, they look a bit like illusions, hallucinations. And you usually get hallucinations because it's too hot or humid. I find that super poetic.  

Then, next year in October we are invited to participate in Asia now. We will do the show in relation to the gallery. Part of it would be at the gallery and part of it would be at the fair. Two places at the same time.  

Tropical Hallucinations would be in September/October after the Phu Lang Sa collective which takes place this summer, and in November we have a group show of filmmakers, but we’ll be presenting what they do when they don't make films.  

Oh that’s super interesting ! So what do they do exactly ? 

Exactly, right? Fascinating things. So, they got their budget cut during Covid and could not film as they were in locked down and their projects got put on hold. They were so bored they turned to different mediums to express themselves at home. Some used ceramics, some made collage paintings and it turned out to be great. I’ve known the filmmakers for a long time but I’ve never seen them in different formats. Some were still doing film, but bizarre karaoke film, just for fun you know? The show will be called A Drop of Serenity. Since serenity is a luxury in this business. It’s when we have a moment to unwind, but it's also a disaster because it's literally when you are jobless with nothing else to do. That's what happened during Covid. This is just one drop of it, and what they can create during that time. 

You have also previously created educational programs at the Factory in Vietnam, and you've also created the project Symbioses. I was wondering if you would carry this approach of making outreaching programs? 

You know, I would love to but I'm one human. Having this gallery is my priority this year. I have to keep it up and running. Symbioses is still supporting Nổ Cái Bùm Festival which will be held again next year but that’s my personal project and not related to the gallery at all. They are totally separate entities with no correlation with one another. I don’t think I’ll do public programmes in France this year. We could have a book launch later on, we do feature some Vietnamese writers here. Maybe some private screenings but it’s not our priority at the moment. I’m always very passionate about education and I always want to do that, but I need to be grounded with this gallery first. 

Related to that, Nổ Cái Bùm took place in different cities each edition which promoted contemporary art beyond Vietnam’s traditional centers of Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. Would you consider applying this method here and decenter the Parisian hub?   

Those are two different projects of two different nature. Nổ Cái Bùm is an artist-run non-profit art festival where we don’t do any sales. I want to keep that part very pure. It’s completely managed by artists, which means they initiate their projects and curate themselves. Galerie BAQ is a commercial entity run by me and my team. Its location is crucial, which is why it’s in the capital. These two have no correlations with each other and I want Nổ Cái Bùm to stay this self-running entity where I won’t interfere much.  

Last question, what are the artists do you think we should look out for both in Paris and internationally?  

Apart from famous names such as Danh Vo, Dinh Q. Le, or Thu-Van Tran, I really like the works of Aung Ko and Nge Lay, Richie Nath, Nguyen Thi Chau Giang, Lim Sokchanlina. Soon, Galerie BAQ will present works by Phan Thao Nguyen, Kamin Lertchaiprasert, Imhathai Suwatthanailp, Julian Togar- Abraham, M. Irfan and Paul Kadarisman.

You can find more information about BAQ here.